B-Wolf ([info]taketa) wrote,
@ 2006-06-03 22:13:00
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R.I.P. Playstation?
Sooo, there's this thing going on that is getting little to no media attention.
However, if this goes through, this is gonna make a fairly big impact for gamers and the game industry.
In comic books, this would be the very first death of a major character after a run of 20 years. This is gonna be some busy but fairly interesting read.

A couple years ago, in 2002, there was a lawsuit filed against Sony and Microsoft over their inclusion of rumble functionality in the video game consoles. The company in question filing these lawsuits is Immersion Corp.
Immersion Corp has invented and patented the popular rotating mass rotors that cause vibration and rumble in devices, without causing actual 'shock' to the devices in question, making it possible to employ them in more delicate technology. Since there are several ways to create vibration/rumble in devices, the patent actually has value. In fact, Immersion Corps technology is used in many devices, especially in several Force Feedback capable joysticks for the PC and several cellphone manufacturers; that's what makes your phone vibrate in your pocket. These rotating mass rotors were employed both by Sony and Microsoft in their XBox and the PS2 Dual Shock controllers.
Another patent of Immersion that has been violated is haptic feedback, the employment of vibration in conjunction of video game events. When Mario jumps and it rumbles, there's a patent for that invention and technology too. Immersion Corp and Nintendo actually worked together to design the first Rumble Pak for the Nintendo 64 to be used in games. The patents stem from this collaboration. Immersion got to keep the patents, Nintendo became part-owner of Immersion. Immersion remained largely independent tho and busily supplied several companies all over the world with their technology.
So far so good.

Now, because Nintendo did it and Sony and Microsoft liked to copy Nintendo (can you say Analog Sticks and Shoulder Buttons and Rumble?), they went ahead and copied Rumble functionality, not giving a damn that Immersion actually owned the patents which proved to be a very valuable income for the company.
Hence, in 2002 they got sued.

Microsoft immediately settled out of court, buying 10% of Immersion Corp to steer clear of problems.
Sony however, decided to fight.

And in 2004, Sony lost. The judge found Sony guilty and ordered them to pay 80 Million Dollars to Immersion, as well as stop infringing the copyright, period.
Now, this creates a huge problem for Sony as the technology that makes Rumble work is manifold. It's not just the rotating mass rotors in the controllers, it's also the software and the interfacing.
Hence, to stop infringing on Immersion's patents, Sony needs pull the Dual Shock Controllers, the PS2 system AND every single game that's using rumble off the market. And that's pretty much every damn game, cuz all of them use it some degree and it's in Sony's devkit, in the very software that's running on every PS2 DVD.
This is fact. Sony lost and got ordered by the court to comply. Since then, they've already making payments towards Immersion, haven't pulled the PS2 off the market tho.
The reason is that Sony made an appeal. Pending the appeal, they won't have to pull PS2 off the market.

Fast foward to 2005. Sony's first appeal was brought to court. And they lost, again. In fact, they lost so hard, that the money they have to pay was raised to 92 Million Dollars. And it also made way for another lawsuit, because one testimony given in favour of Sony was given by an Ex-employee of Immersion. Curiously enough, this ex-employee got 150,000 Dollars from Sony before the trial. The judge decided to declare the testimony void, and because of the circumstances, Sony may just get another lawsuit about that from Immersion. It's rumored to be already in the pipeline.

Sony has since filed a second appeal. Once again, Sony got denied by the court. This was in March 2006. Sony has one last chance to file a third appeal, which they're doing. But if they lose that one too, and it looks very likely, considering the history of the 3 previous times in court, that they might just lose it.
Then, they're enforced to take PS2 completely off the market.
Then, an entire console would disappear, only to be found used and on Ebay if you don't already own it. Final Fantasy 12 wouldn't even come out in the US anymore, for example, and that is going to be PS2's last big title (which is expected to sell more PS2s as well).

Sony's only other option would be to buy the license for the patents they used from Immersion. Back then, in 2002, that wouldn't have been to expensive. But considering the vast amount of PS2s and games sold, this amounts to something like 30 million dollars. A year.
30 million for every year since the PS2 has been as far as I know.
By now, that's 150 Million dollars.

Now, Sony is already in financial trouble as it is, considering iPod one handedly pushed them out of the music market, last year's Rootkit Scandal hitting their record label, their own iTunes-esque platform not taking off at all, Blu-Ray becoming extremely expensive and falling under more and more criticism, with less and less movie companies deciding to go with it. PSP may be selling, but it's dropping like a stone now and its UMD movie format is getting largely ignored. Long story short, Sony's in trouble.

Now, let's look at the upcoming Next Generation of video game consoles.
XBox 360 has already been successfully established and Microsoft got its act together. They're still after your money, but at least you're getting quite something for it. It's a good solid Next-Gen console. It is what everyone at first guessed to be the 'level of Next Gen' we could expect. Just like XBox, PS2 and Gamecube were each on a certain level with each other.
Wii is at the very least regarded as strange and controversial in the business, largely it attracts a lot of positive criticism and many, including myself, hail it as the second coming of the video game. It does underwhelm the level of Next Gen completely that people expected, in fact, it's pretty much creating its own Level of Next Gen completely.
PS3. PS3 is aiming at something far higher in terms of Next Generation graphical presentation and hardware power. That thing is going to be powerful, full stop. Not easy and absolutely not cheap to develop for, but powerful. If you know how, you can make it do some amazing stuff, at least on the paper. It's expensive as hell and the PS3lite version borders on being useless in many of the areas that PS3 actually wants to excel at.

PS3 doesn't want to be 'just a console'. Even more so than the XBox, which is console with features, PS3 wants to offer multiple capabilities, which are supposedly to be considered equal to its gaming capabilities. No, it doesn't cook your coffee, but for example, it opts to work as a Digital VCR with its harddrive, a media center, an internet-capable computer, a blu ray dvd player (as expected) and the heart of their online service. SOE's line of MMORPGs like Everquest 2 will actually be playable on PS3 in a sort of pc emulation, similar to how you can play FFXI on several systems. PS3 Lite won't let you do a whole bunch of that and won't even let you use memory sticks or wifi for your damn controller.

All in all, the outlook is rather bleak. Some of PS3's developers were very disappointed to see their platform of choice take a turn to become the Maybach of consoles with that steep price. You sell less system (just cuz people can't afford to) and hence the games will sell even less. Whereas PS1 and PS2 attracted not only a mass-market of costumers but also a mass-market of developers, PS3 will largely lose a large amount of developers from their old systems. It's just too expensive to develop for it when the expected payoff is much smaller than before. Playstation used to be 'The RPG console'. Expect it to be that no more, because one thing many of those developers had was a lotta money. Except Square Enix, but they deserve a Rant of their own.

So this is the sort of criticism that PS3 already garners on its own. The thing is not out yet and right now, as it is, I don't see a whole lot that would deserve my money, nor a hype. For once, Sony may be on the wrong track.

Now, however, to connect the lines between PS2 and PS3.
PS3's controller has seen some revamps before E3 in May. 2, in fact, raised many eyebrows.
First one, the PS3 controller now has motion sensors. Not quite the same ones as Wii, but it certainly seems Wii-inspired. Add to it that Sony added this features mere weeks before E3, its inclusion seems to be exactly the sort of bandwaggoning gimmick it seems to be. Adding to the case are statements of PS3 developers, who haven't seen any sign of a feature like this to be included in any of their earlier devkits.
Second change in the PS3 controller is the sudden lack of rumble functionality. Now, if you've followed my post up to this point, you'll understand why it reeks.
PS3 has no more rumble functionality. They said its due to the 'sensitivity of the motion sensors' and that the rumble would adversly affect them. This sounds like a good reason, but when you start looking around, it quickly falls apart. First off, Wii's remote has both motion sensors, lots of other sensors and a rumble pak, which doesn't affect the sensors at all. Secondly, Immersion Corp's very own CEO said that his company finds it strange that Sony didn't get it work, considering that rotating mass motors are non-disruptive to delicate technology, due to not delivering 'shock' but gyroscopic forces. The CEO also went on to offer Sony to take care of the problem for them, since they know of 3 different ways to fix a possible problem like that. Of course, only if they get their license ;)
But, add 2 and 2 together and you can imagine why Sony's PS3 has no more rumble. The case was lost, they don't wanna pay Immersion and now wanna get as far away from rumble as possible.

And Rumble *was* part of the PS3. Several developers have talked excessively about it, have confirmed that the earlier devkits had it, the tentative controllers they got had it. And even the developers of Warhawk, the first game to use Sony's brand-spanking new motion sensor said it had it and that there was absolutely no problem at all between rumble and the sensors. Some developers are furious about the exclusion of rumble. One of them, Metal Gear Solid creator Hideo Kojima from Konami, for example, is 'sad and very upset'. That's respective japanese for 'out of his mind'. Quite possibly, after their second appeal getting denied in March, Sony's getting cold feet. They're looking at impending doom.

If PS2 gets pulled off the market, one of their most important sources of income just vanishes and they make millions more in losses, possibly even lawsuits by the developers of games that trusted Sony. Square Enix will lose millions, for they rely on FFXII coming to the US and selling well, just to name one company.

Now, as it seems to have become standard after PS2 and especially the first XBox, Sony and Microsoft develop extremely expensive consoles, sell them for a fairly cheap price all considering, hence making big losses, but eventually racking in the big dough, once the console's games sell, hence making the big money through the games and eventually, with cheaper production costs, the consoles. But, in order to do that, you need a LOT of money to cover you the first years. Microsoft quite obviously has more than enough money to employ that strategy. Sony had its ongoing income from the PS1 (for it continued to sell) buffering their losses with the PS2 until it stopped making losses. Now, XBox 1 has covered for XBox 360 (tho XBox 1 is dying much quicker now) and PS2 is expected to cover for the PS3.
well...yeah, there's the problem.

If PS2 dies, Sony is gonna feel those losses the hard way. As I already said, with Final Fantasy 12 coming out for it and many gamers wanting to get it now that its price is falling, they could've expected a huge amount of income covering for PS3's extremely steep production costs and the losses in selling it 'cheaply'. 600 Dollars is still expensive, but that's a cheap as they could possibly get.
Microsoft's quite obvious strategy is to vastly overtake competitors with vastly more powerful consoles for a vastly cheaper price, due to their overly large pockets. If everyone played the Next Gen game, they would eventually win. Nintendo obviously found the alternative and seem to be actually getting a better deal out of it than Microsoft. Already, they racked in the coveted Best of Show and Best Hardware Awards of E3 which are kinda like the Oscars for the gaming world. PS3 is trying to tackle Microsoft's strategy by presenting an even more powerful console and hoping PS2 would cover for the losses, which is fully expected that it could.
Unless of course, PS2 goes byby. Then they're gonna hit full-force. Not only will there be no money coming in, but PS3's most important feature for the first year, backwards compatibility, will effectively be useless, unless you already own PS2 games. You can fully expect prices for used PS2 games to go up if PS2 dies, too.

And if all that isn't enough trouble, as shown before, PS3 was actually going to have rumble. If Sony doesn't do a perfect clean-up job removing it from everything, the court order to stop infringing on Immersion's patent will be in effect for the PS3 and it might not even come out at ALL. Tho, as already shown, that would just be the tip of the iceberg of the whole house of cards crashing down on poor poor Sony.

Let's see, did I miss anything? It's quite a complex story, but hopefully not too confusing.
So what's Sony doing now? They're quiet. Very quiet. And, trying their best to uphold their image. Some so-called Top Game Designer of Sony, Phil Harrison, is upholding a smiling poker face. He cites motion-sensors in PS3 to have been a planned feature from the get-go and accusations that they're just copying Nintendo to be mere envy. He goes on to say that nobody complained about Nintendo 64 copying Playstation 1's, and I quote, 'Real-Time 3D Graphics'. Now, that's a full-blown lie, you don't 'copy' what is a blatantly obvious mathematical visualization process on computers. Sony didn't create the Polygon, Phil, and for the record, even disregarding that computers where first to use real-time 3D, the first video game console to display true real-time 3D graphics was Starfox on the Super Nintendo, and that came out earlier than PS1. Next, he goes on to declare the Playstation Dual Analog controller to be the industry standard on game controllers, trying to throw a good light on Sony's innovations. Well, buzz again. Nintendo pretty much invented the game controller. They were first to use d-pads, the select/pause combo, 4 buttons in the four-corner shape, shoulder buttons (which Sony multiplied by two), Analog Sticks (which Sony multiplied by two), Rumble Paks (again, which Sony multiplied by two) and analog-sensitive buttons (and once again, Sony bandwagons). Other than multiplying things by Two, Sony hasn't innovated anything at all. Quite obviously, their copying of rumble comes to bite them in the ass. And now, true-believers, there's one little detail in Phil Harrison's interview from May 31st. He spoke about the 'Dual Analog Controller'. What's this? Dual-Analog Controllers were the first batch of PS1 controllers to include analog sticks. They were quickly phased out by Dual Shock Controllers shortly afterwards. For PS2, they used Dual Shock 2 Controllers. If it's black, it's Dual Shock 2. Dual Shock is the rumbling line and has been sold by Sony since before the turn of the century under that name. Every single Sony PR spokesman has been throwing the 'Dual Shock 2' brand name at us for YEARS. And suddenly, Sony's Top Game Designer and PR Spokesman (they send this guy to E3 to gloat about Sony) slips his mind and calls it Dual Analog? Awhuh? How do you slip your mind after all these years, bub? How do you not know what the product you're condoning is called? Unless...yep. He ain't allowed to call it that anymore. Sony is going hushhush about rumble. No sony representative talks about it anymore. They're already even saying that it just doesn't deliver to the gaming experience anymore (this from the guys who gave us not one, but TWO rumble motors).
Yah, well, I'm calling the bluff. Behind the scenes, there must be hellfires burning already at Sony. To prove their desperation: Phil Harrison was talking about innovation in terms of online game play with the PS3. They want new ventures other than what has already been shown. As examples of what he likes to see, he mentioned Myspace and Second Life. In one sentence. Ew.


Really. Sony's situation is dire. On many fronts, in many ways. And if there isn't a miracle, PS2 may be gone before long, the first gaming console to die a painful death. Heck, even Dreamcast didn't die and is still sold on Sega's website.
This may cause some major repercussions in the gaming industry. Nintendo and Microsoft will be left to pick up the pieces. All that'll be left of Sony is the PSP, rumble-free of course. At least then it can't be criticised for simply getting PS2 ports anymore.
But some developers will suffer. Some will maybe die altogether, or jump ships.
Nintendo's DS seems to be quickly becoming the RPG platform of choice, due to its innovations. Wii, with its low price and production costs, might garner to a lot of the smaller developers as well. You can fully expect the Wii to grow a massive library of games not seen since the Super Nintendo days on a Nintendo system.
And the crown of the Next Gen market will fall to Microsoft's XBox. Not really a triumph tho. Sony would've died prematurely and Nintendo will have gone to conquer a different kingdom. They'll own Next Gen. Or whatever it is that they call Next Gen. They'll get plenty of games on it, or so they hope. They won't be getting much of a chance to tap into Wii's market, since they don't have the technology as a main feature like Wii. Plus, ever since Gunpei Yokoi invented the first gameboy in true inventor style and patented it, Nintendo has been keeping up on its patents for every single system. A whole bunch in Wii alone, which Microsoft can't easily go and copy. But XBox might just become the powerconsole of choice for traditional games while Wii hammers out its own market. Already, with Wii's price definitely below 250 and expected to be at 200, those gamers who do have money are just gonna buy it on impulse. And its array of games you can't experience on any other system is definitely gonna spark the curiousity of many a gamer. And already my parents, my 50+ parents that only play Solitaire and Tetris are curious about it. Nintendo might just get those people who have traditionally been non-gamers to reconsider. It's a whole new world.

Disclaimer: All this is conjecture of course, based on what I've researched. It is to be taken as a rumor and a personal opinion. It is quite possible that it contains several factual errors and that some sources may have been wrong to begin with. Ultimately, this is MY opinion based on the best research I could do and is to be taken as such. I am not responsible for people deciding to read my opinions and forming their own opinions and/or linking to it from various other places.

PS: Since this article is getting linked around a lot now, I'm gonna add some links so people can look at this situation for themselves. Wikipedia will be extremely useful in this too, look for the Immersion, Playstation 2 and Playstation 3 entries there, as well as Dual Shock.

Immersion CEO speaks out about PS3 Controller:
http://www.businessweek.com/innovate/content/may2006/id20060519_077964.htm?chan=tc&chan=technology_technology+index+page_consumer+electronics

Phil Harrison Interview:
http://service.spiegel.de/cache/international/0,1518,419072,00.html

Appeal from March 2006:
http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20060313-6366.html

Penny Arcade's wise words on PS3:
http://www.penny-arcade.com/2006/05/22

Previous Nintendo/Sony troubles:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation#Development

Immersion Corp's Press Release of the March 2005 appeal:
http://immr.client.shareholder.com/ReleaseDetail.cfm?ReleaseID=158652



(64 comments) - (Post a new comment)


[info]sylesis
2006-06-04 09:23 am UTC (link)
Impressive researches, and very interesting .

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]taketa
2006-06-05 03:17 pm UTC (link)
Thankoo. I'm still stunned that this isn't getting more attention. Maybe it's just that I'm a gamer and largely keeping up with the gaming industry as a whole. But I think this will leave quite the impact on the popculture as a whole.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]tailes
2006-06-04 01:07 pm UTC (link)
o.o

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]taketa
2006-06-05 03:17 pm UTC (link)
o,o

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]anamericangirl
2006-06-04 02:09 pm UTC (link)
yikes

(Reply to this) (Thread)


(Anonymous)
2006-06-04 02:30 pm UTC (link)
Yipe!

While I can't and won't rush to Sony's defense on any of this--this is still gonna suck.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]anamericangirl, 2006-06-04 10:48 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]taketa, 2006-06-05 03:25 pm UTC
Mmmm
[info]kanadragonheart
2006-06-04 03:03 pm UTC (link)
Impressive, like the first comment said, i'll be linking this forward.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Mmmm
[info]taketa
2006-06-05 03:25 pm UTC (link)
Feel free to link it :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]rapierdf
2006-06-04 04:17 pm UTC (link)
No kidding really really impressve.
Nice to read too

(Reply to this)


[info]anadriel
2006-06-04 05:08 pm UTC (link)
I second Kana. Linking this forward, and very well done.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]taketa
2006-06-05 03:26 pm UTC (link)
Thanks :) Feel free to link to it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]razza
2006-06-04 11:58 pm UTC (link)
Patents really do suck ass and this just proves it really. Creating a vibration by spinning around a lump of uneven metal is hardly rocket science. While I'd like to see Nintendo get back a bit more of the console gaming market, if it's to the detrement of every other gaming platform it's not really good for gaming as a whole. Regardless of the rumble thing though, Sony is just clueless, when it succeeds it seems to be more by accident than anything else. I mean seriously who's going to buy a $600 game console? Perhaps the same people that will hook it up to two HD televisions for multiplayer, all three of them ;)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]kanadragonheart
2006-06-05 03:35 am UTC (link)
The greatest and most usable inventions never need to be rocket science you know...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]razza, 2006-06-05 09:25 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]taketa, 2006-06-05 03:13 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-06-05 11:33 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]taketa, 2006-06-06 12:46 am UTC
(no subject) - [info]taketa, 2006-06-06 12:57 am UTC
great read
[info]sullytao
2006-06-05 06:40 pm UTC (link)
hi that was a great read, i can see you have really done your research well.
i was wondering if you know or have a link to an information source about what happened with sony and nintendo, i heard that sony tried to do something to nintendo but they managed to get out in time, but thats all i know.

anyway once again nice article :)

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: great read
[info]taketa
2006-06-06 12:48 am UTC (link)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PlayStation#Development

There ya go :)

(Reply to this) (Parent)


(Anonymous)
2006-06-05 08:20 pm UTC (link)
WOW!!! Great article! Thanks for clearing up Sony's fiasco; this just killed any reason for me to get a PS3...and I should probably inform some of my friends who I know wanted a PS3. Looks like I'll be getting a Wii and a 360 soon =)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]taketa
2006-06-06 01:08 am UTC (link)
Unless Sony seriously seriously gets their act together and more info gets out on the situation in general, I would hold off on getting a PS3, yeah.
There may not have been major media release about this yet, but then again, Sony may be putting that off with the appeals.
Even if all this turns out not to be true, the PS3 remains extremely expensive, which means its gonna garner to a smaller market. Also, development costs are way higher and it has already been revealed amongst developers, that from the 3 Next-Gen consoles, PS3 will be the most difficult to program for, based on cellchips peculiar design.
So...fewer players, higher development costs. Don't expect a rush of software by third party developers whose creativity is bigger than their budget.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Interesting. But...
(Anonymous)
2006-06-05 10:25 pm UTC (link)
I find it interesting that you state that the PS3's controller was "wii-inspired" yet you go on to contradict yourself saying that the both the rumble freature and tilt feture was included in the early dev kits.

"PS3's controller has seen some revamps before E3 in May. 2, in fact, raised many eyebrows.
First one, the PS3 controller now has motion sensors. Not quite the same ones as Wii, but it certainly seems Wii-inspired. Add to it that Sony added this features mere weeks before E3, its inclusion seems to be exactly the sort of bandwaggoning gimmick it seems to be. Adding to the case are statements of PS3 developers, who haven't seen any sign of a feature like this to be included in any of their earlier devkits."

"And Rumble *was* part of the PS3. Several developers have talked excessively about it, have confirmed that the earlier devkits had it, the tentative controllers they got had it. And even the developers of Warhawk, the first game to use Sony's brand-spanking new motion sensor said it had it and that there was absolutely no problem at all between rumble and the sensors."

Interesting quote here. if the PS3 doesn't include the rumble feature how would this effect PS3 seeing as it wont be able to use the rumble for backwards compatability.

"court order to stop infringing on Immersion's patent will be in effect for the PS3 and it might not even come out at ALL."

I agree that sony didn't "create the pologon" but Sony was the first to make the 3D standard. Plus the Reason why the Metal Gear series left from Nintendo to Sony was b/c of the 3D. Hideo Kojima stated that 3D was the next logical step for the series which is why the name became Metal Gear Solid(as in 3D).

"Sony didn't create the Polygon, Phil, and for the record, even disregarding that computers where first to use real-time 3D, the first video game console to display true real-time 3D graphics was Starfox on the Super Nintendo, and that came out earlier than PS1."


While I can't argue on most of this statement here I do find your lack of knowledge of the past kind of upsetting. Atari used an analog stick, its main buttons were for lack of a better word shoulder buttons. so in all rights Nintendo copied those from a different company.

"They were first to use d-pads, the select/pause combo, 4 buttons in the four-corner shape, shoulder buttons (which Sony multiplied by two), Analog Sticks (which Sony multiplied by two), Rumble Paks (again, which Sony multiplied by two) and analog-sensitive buttons (and once again, Sony bandwagons)."

Your present a very good arguement, and you try to remain unbias, but these simple things show that you do have a bias by your either lack of research or your choice to leave them out to suit your own needs.

PS I got those arguement by just skimming what you wrote, I'd be affraid of what I'd find incorrect if I actually tried.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Interesting. But...
[info]taketa
2006-06-06 12:42 am UTC (link)
Well, apparently PS3 will be able to play PS2 games, just not support any rumble. That has already been confirmed.
And it's apparent that the PS3 motion sensor is wii-inspired. And to prove my point I mentioned the devkits. If Sony had planned on this all along as they're trying to say, it would've been included from the start and not just suddenly added. Only the game Warhawk uses that technology, but even Hideo Kojima who's developed MGS4 right now had no clue that it was coming. And had no clue that Rumble was to be taken out. Both, which left Hideo Kojima very upset in an interview which you can find on gamespot.
As for 'making 3D standard', that's pretty much stupid. After 2D, 3D was the next logical step, as shown by the several 3D games that already came out for the Super Nintendo in its later years. Starfox was just the first of these. Computers were already busily using 3D Graphics at that point and quite obviously, the trend towards 3D was a no-brainer. That Sony did it first was just good timing, but eventually everyone would've done it, especially Nintendo since they had successfully used it on the Super Nintendo.
And get your facts straight, Hideo Kojima never 'left' Nintendo, in fact, Metal Gear has never been a Nintendo game. Metal Gear 1 and 2 were released for the MSX, a japanese console. They were merely ported (and ported badly) for the NES. Whereas MG 1 for NES was lacking in translation, MG 2 was a totally different game for NES.
And while, yes, Atari had an Analog stick. Non-centering, ungainly and unreliabe. Then it disappeared for 14 years of the market until Nintendo reintroduced it, making vast improvements on it and wisely using it for 3D games. So, in the modern 3D gaming console age, yes, Nintendo was first to introduce the Analog stick.
And I did do my research based on what I found connected to these particular cases. Can't help that it sounds biased because I'm merely stating the facts, and considering what the facts ARE, I dare you to try and sound UNbiased.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Interesting. But... - (Anonymous), 2006-06-06 12:55 am UTC
Re: Interesting. But... - [info]taketa, 2006-06-06 01:24 am UTC
Re: Interesting. But... - (Anonymous), 2006-06-06 03:50 am UTC
Re: Interesting. But... - [info]taketa, 2006-06-06 04:30 am UTC
This is biased.
(Anonymous)
2006-06-06 12:02 am UTC (link)
I was linked here and expected to read a nice anlysis. This is very biased against Sony on the one side, and on the other it does not mention facts that should have been discovered during the research. You could have easily made a more Sony condemning psot here!

I cannot believe though that this article is considered non biased.

By the way, I am anonymous because I am not a livejournal user and not have an openID site.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: This is biased.
[info]taketa
2006-06-06 12:53 am UTC (link)
Well, as a matter of fact, I tried to be unbiased in this, but considering the facts that I'm highlighting, I guess it's impossible NOT to sound biased. I am merely talking about the issues that Sony has here and those a far-reaching. And they are so far reaching that I can't say a good thing. I would've wanted to write only the bad stuff about the PS2 lawsuit and then good stuff about the PS3. But, whoops, PS3 is garnerning mostly negative press about lots of its features as well. What can I do?

And for your information. I own a PS2 and Devil May Cry and MGS are amongst my most priced possessions. I neither had an XBox nor a Gamecube. Nor do I have an XBox 360. I had a PS1, but no Nintendo 64, nor a Sega Saturn. And I'm only just now getting a Nintendo DS next week and have decided to get the Wii.
I may like the console, I may like the games, but I don't like what Sony's doing and now they're getting the bill for it.

If you've got anything redeeming about Sony to reveal, go for it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


(Anonymous)
2006-06-06 12:14 am UTC (link)
I liked your post until I came to the spot that said "No, it doesn't cook your coffee..." after that I couldn't take you seriouslly because comon, who cooks coffee?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]taketa
2006-06-06 12:55 am UTC (link)
I cook coffee! Sometimes also a cappucino. And have you ever heard of the VCR that was supposed to cook your coffee and do your laundry?
It's a joke :P
Whenever someone says they're making a system that can do almost everything, most everybody asks if it cooks coffee too. Or at least my generation did...but I'm only 22!

(Reply to this) (Parent)


(Anonymous)
2006-06-06 12:58 am UTC (link)
Who cares even if he is biased?
The hard fats are that sony is about to lose it's third (and likely final) appeal, and that would mean, given their refusal to settle, all ps2 hardware and most of the software pulled from the stores. Meaning a lot of pissed developers, and lack of funding for ps3 in it's early years.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]taketa
2006-06-06 01:25 am UTC (link)
Yep. Exactly. I mean, I had a PS2 as my only console since the Super Nintendo and I have shared my good opinions about the console's mass-market appeal and the games. But Sony nowadays never ceases to irk me and try as hard as I might, in aaaaall these things, there wasn't one good thing to say about Sony :P

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-06-06 01:38 am UTC

[info]taketa
2006-06-06 01:28 am UTC (link)
On that note, seeing how people are getting riled up about me being 'biased towards Sony Playstation', some wise words from the wise guys at Penny-Arcade.
I quote:

[Error: Irreparable invalid markup ('<it [...] very,>') in entry. Owner must fix manually. Raw contents below.]

On that note, seeing how people are getting riled up about me being 'biased towards Sony Playstation', some wise words from the wise guys at Penny-Arcade.
I quote:

<It is very, very early to consider one's self a fan of the PlayStation 3.>
-Tycho

http://www.penny-arcade.com/2006/05/22

(Reply to this)

Sony should just pay up
(Anonymous)
2006-06-06 02:48 am UTC (link)
I can't understand how Sony on the one hand were willing to employ nefarious tactics such as installing rootkits on users PCs in order to protect its own IP (music) and then blatently infringes on the IP of others by not licensing from Immersion. The issue of infringement is no longer subject to debate. The court has already decided and Sony lost.

Sony, pay up like Microsoft, Logitech and many others.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: Sony should just pay up
(Anonymous)
2006-06-06 03:54 am UTC (link)
Sony BMG is responsible for the rootkit fiasco.

Sony CEA is responsible for the playstation.

They are 2 different corporate entities.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: Sony should just pay up - [info]taketa, 2006-06-06 04:00 am UTC
Re: Sony should just pay up - [info]zakman, 2006-06-06 07:15 am UTC
Two thumbs up.
(Anonymous)
2006-06-06 09:49 am UTC (link)
Very concise, yet elaborate reading. Very very good research on your part; the industry could use a lot more people like you. You used facts to back up every one of your statements and didn't resort to favoritism to prove your point. (SSBM voice)CONGRADULATIONS!

(Reply to this)


(Anonymous)
2006-06-06 04:58 pm UTC (link)
Some quotes from the passage:
And in 2004, Sony lost. The judge found Sony guilty and ordered them to pay 80 Million Dollars to Immersion, as well as stop infringing the copyright, period.
Hence, to stop infringing on Immersion's patents, Sony needs pull the Dual Shock Controllers, the PS2 system AND every single game that's using rumble off the market.

Sony's only other option would be to buy the license for the patents they used from Immersion. Back then, in 2002, that wouldn't have been to expensive. But considering the vast amount of PS2s and games sold, this amounts to something like 30 million dollars. A year.
30 million for every year since the PS2 has been as far as I know.
By now, that's 150 Million dollars.

Immersion Corp's very own CEO said that his company finds it strange that Sony didn't get it work, considering that rotating mass motors are non-disruptive to delicate technology, due to not delivering 'shock' but gyroscopic forces.

-First off, the reason they had to pay the fine was for the loss Immersion incurred due to Sony using the rumble feature without paying for the right. In paying that they effecitvely covered that fact. So when they say to stop doing it, they simply mean to discontinue their dual shock feature, not "pull all existing ones and games".
-Second, no they would not have to pay for all the years they used the technology before now.Thats just ridiculous. It's also why they paid the fine - TO COVER THAT!
-Third, how do you think motion sensing works - a little ball bearing rolling around on sensors which tells the computer what way your holding it?! NO! It uses GYROSCOPIC technology to tell how much force is being applied to the X, Y, and Z plains.

What we have here people is someone who clearly has something against sony and is blatently a nintendo fan. All he's doing is taking one fact (the lawsuit) and trying to apply it to every other bit of bad media that is coming towards sony.

Oh by the way - Phil is talking about "dual analog" controllers again because that's what they are.You can hardly call it "dual shock" when there's no shock in it? I would be surprised if they didnt buy the patent and put it back in once they get it to work properly. The reason nintendo have it working is because this was the primary point of their console from its conceivment, so they've had several years to work it out.Playstations's only incorporating it - they have more important issues such as POWER to think about wich nintendo seem to have forgotten about....

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]taketa
2006-06-06 05:46 pm UTC (link)
First off, nope, they indeed have to pull any Playstation 2 brand game off the market, since those games are infringing the copyright as well, using the haptic feedback software. Read the damn links.
Second, NOPE, they're just paying for the DAMAGE that they incurred on Immersion for using their technology without licensing them. The court order states to PAY for the damage caused, and STOP causing damage. If they wanna keep PS2 in the market, they'll still have to BUY the license and if they want PS2 and its games and its controllers to stay in the market, they may need to buy retroactively, which results in the 150 million dollars. Unless Immersion Corp throws them a cheap deal, that's what's going to happen. I did my research.
Thirdly, what do I care how motion sensing works? Whatever have I said about motion sensing working? I don't care how motion sensing works, other than Sony suddenly deciding to include it at this fairly late point in the console development, coinciding with Nintendo's Wii. What does this tell you?

And the only console I own is a PS2 and I have lots of groovy games that I absolutely love on it, thank you very much. Just because I love the games and think the product to be okay, doesn't mean that I have to like Sony. Do I have to like their rootkit crap? No! Do I have to like them insisting on bringing out Blu-Ray instead of unifying the next generation of mass-mediums under HD DVD? No! Do I have to like that they believe the market wants a 600 dollar luxury toy that drives up development costs into the orbit so fewer developers can actually afford bringing innovative games out on it and publishers are encouraged to bring out even more mass-market pop? NO! Hell no, I don't have to like Sony's tactics. They should just kept in line with PS1 and PS2, bringing out a good console that is readily available for the mass-market. I don't want their opinions, their strategies or their outlook on the gaming market, because bluntly, they would sooner want to monopolize it and make it damn expensive, so they can earn MONEY. Sony is just as much corporate-driven as Microsoft and that's a hard fact. Sony has almost nil First Party franchises they can really rely on to sell their console. They lived and thrived on Third Party games. They're upping the price for development so high, many current developers will most likely bow out. In fact, that's what developers are already saying. That's what they were saying at E3.
Everyone's free to express their opinions and I'm expressing mine. If Nintendo was going down because they ripped off Rumble Pack, I'd express that. If Microsoft was going down, I'd express that (and hey, I did mention it. And Microsoft settled out of court, which I said too. Am I a Microsoft fanboy now?).

However, PS2 getting pulled off the market, including games, is not my opinion. That's what the damn COURT ORDER said.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

(no subject) - [info]taketa, 2006-06-06 05:46 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]taketa, 2006-06-06 05:52 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-06-06 06:17 pm UTC
(no subject) - [info]taketa, 2006-06-06 08:39 pm UTC
(no subject) - (Anonymous), 2006-06-07 04:28 pm UTC
The court order does not say Sony has to pull PS2 off the shelves
(Anonymous)
2006-06-08 08:19 am UTC (link)
The court order does not say that Sony has to pull the PS2 off the shelves, so stop making up stuff. Also it's clear from your article and your reply to comments that you are biased against Sony.

I think your claim of doom for the Playstation brand is ridiculous. You ask who will want to pay $600 for a console, well first of all people could get the "lite" version for $500, even the lite version will be capable of producing better graphics than the Xbox 360, the lite version is nowhere near "usesless" as you claim. Second, plenty of people will gladly buy the $600 version. Did you forget the 3DO? 3DO came out in the US for $700!! And guess how much 3DO's they managed to sell, 6 million of them. With the popularity of the Sony Playstation brand name, especially its immense popularity in Japan, Sony will easily be able to sell 4 times that amount, that would be 2 million more consoles than Xbox sold. And that's just the worst case scenario, I predict Sony will be able to sell about 80 million PS3s in 5 years. A more recent demonstration that also points out how ridiculous your claim is, is the many people who bought Xbox 360's on Ebay for over $1000, that's $500 more than the "lite PS3," and $600 more than the "premium" Xbox 360 bundle.

So the PS3 will do respectably well in sales, much to your detriment.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: The court order does not say Sony has to pull PS2 off the shelves
(Anonymous)
2006-06-08 01:59 pm UTC (link)
"so stop making stuff up"

Um...actually you're the one making stuff up. The court order DOES say that they have to pull the PS2 and 46 games that infringe on the copyright from stores. In case you don't have a large vocabulary, I'll point out some words that you should look for instead of "pull PS2 off shelves." Those words are: injunction, enjoined, halt, and suspend. Here are the links to a bunch of articles that prove you are dead wrong:

http://news.com.com/Sony+loses+round+in+DualShock+patent+case/2100-1047_3-6049177.html
http://www.bit-tech.net/news/2006/03/13/sony_dual_shock_patent
http://www.hardwaregeeks.com/comments.php?shownews=4031&catid=3
http://www.thestandard.com/internetnews/002906.php
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/4387045.stm

Or you can just do a google search on: "sony loses patent case," if you're still in denial.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)

Re: The court order does not say Sony has to pull PS2 off the shelves - [info]taketa, 2006-06-08 02:31 pm UTC
Re: The court order does not say Sony has to pull PS2 off the shelves - [info]taketa, 2006-06-08 02:29 pm UTC
Re: The court order does not say Sony has to pull PS2 off the shelves - [info]taketa, 2006-06-08 02:30 pm UTC
Re: The court order does not say Sony has to pull PS2 off the shelves - (Anonymous), 2006-09-02 12:26 pm UTC
I still say
[info]rogue1717
2006-06-09 02:21 pm UTC (link)
you spend entirely too much time worrying about this crap when there are more important things to worry about in life. *shrugs*

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: I still say
[info]taketa
2006-06-09 07:50 pm UTC (link)
oookay

(Reply to this) (Parent)

100% Spot on
(Anonymous)
2006-06-15 07:51 pm UTC (link)
Brilliant and factual post and keeps away from the fanboy line and presents the actual truth in a clean and precise manner.

If (sorry: when) Sony lose this, IYO, will it kill the as a company?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: 100% Spot on
[info]taketa
2006-06-28 03:58 pm UTC (link)
Hard to say. I want to say, No, it won't kill Sony, because they're active in several other markets and they were to begin with. However, it's clear that PS3 is going to flagship several of their new technologies and that they want to present it as the center of their multimedia market. If they lose the court appeal, that's gonna be a massive blow to the reputation and their finances. Once the third appeal has passed, no matter the ruling, it is free to be reported all over the world by mass media. When that happens, who knows how PS3 will fare? Who knows if PS3 will be affected by the lawsuit against PS2? Seeing how much Sony seems to have running on the PS3, this might just break them badly.
Or they might just shrug it off and continue as usual. Who knows. It's all speculation.
For the moment however, it's worth keeping a wary eye on it.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]sohjin
2006-09-02 01:54 am UTC (link)
GG Sony?


(Reply to this)


[info]solanth
2006-09-07 02:29 am UTC (link)
Just one thing; if Sony's going to have to pull all of their PS2s, and they've had years to see this coming, why would they be releasing PS2s in colours such as white and pink now?

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]taketa
2006-09-08 07:24 pm UTC (link)
To make a last ditch effort to sell as many of them as you can? Not a huge effort to change the colors at this point. And if I was Sony, yeah, I'd want to sell as many of them as possible right now, especially seeing how disastrous the situation with the PS3 is getting.
Sometimes, people will buy a console twice, if they really really love the new color. Nintendo has been doing this for years starting with the different colored game boys. Every new Nintendo DS color has usually been sold out in record-time in Japan and in the US too. It has a certain collector's feel to it, especially with the nice shiny ipod-esque plastic casing. But I'm not gonna scream rip-off over this, because it's really simple to come up with a different color for your console. And right now, the home entertainment and multimedia market has entered the sleek, shiny, single-colored era.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

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2009-04-30 04:35 pm UTC (link)
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